Author Topic: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004  (Read 1414 times)

April 13, 2017, 01:51:49 PM

Offline eddywinch82

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Hi there,

I have been using AI Smooth V1.11 and AI Separation V1.1, together when running FS2004. With the recommended settings that Dave Sheffield has told people they should use, when running in tandem with each other. And I have tried AI Smooth V1.20 again with ronzie's settings, I found on a forum post a while back, and with AI Separation with the above setup I mentioned. Problems with each.

Interestingly the other day, I ran FS2004 at the same time Day Month and Airport i.e. Aerosoft's Mega Airport (Amsterdam Schipol), without running those two programs. And an AI Aircraft a Vueling Airlines A320, now didn't disappear on approach and landed at the Airport when before it was when running them ? I can't remember which other AI Aircraft did or didn't disappear, but that is interesting in itself. But unfortunately without running AI Smooth V1.11 at least. obviously more go arounds resulted, and as is well known, AI Aircraft are deleted by the FS2004 Engine, if they are told to go around more than 3 times by the ATC.

Why would without running AI Smooth and AI Separation, the Vueling Airline now land and not disappear on approach ?

It seems that if I alter certain settings in AI Smooth V1.11 or V1.20, different AI Aircraft disappear, than before. so a Schedule problem I don't think can be the cause with these AI Airliners. Actually although happening less, with the Aerosoft Mega Airport Schipol Scenery, when I don't run either program in FS2004. Some AI Aircraft still do disappear on approach. What could cause that to happen ? So yes or no, can an AI Aircraft i.e. an Airliner be deleted in flight, by FS2004 if there is insufficient parking or unsuitable parking, at an Airport when it is approaching it ? Or will it always approach, land and then disappear on the runway only ? AI Airliners are constantly departing at this Airport, so I doubt insufficient parking should be an issue ?

Airliners are still disappearing, even when I make more parking for Airliners, i.e. changing GA parking in the AFCAD File to Airliner parking ? And is there a way that can be prevented from happening ? i.e. modification of the program (if allowed) in some way ? I have alot of AI Traffic. But not too much I don't think, I have Ultimate Traffic installed. But I always carefully unselect the relevant Airlines when doing an "Ultimate Traffic" Traffic File compile, if I install a new package for the same Airline usually from WOAI.

Or if say two Airlines have merged, and I install the merged Airline package, i.e. un select the now defunct Airlines that merged to make the new Airline from the Ulitmate Traffic Airline Compile menu when Compiling, and also If an Airline has changed i.e. AIR 2000 became First Choice. I would unselect AIR 2000 from "Ulitmate Traffic" Traffic File compilation, before installing the First Choice AI Traffic package, which I have from WOAI. And the same applies with other Airlines.

So I don't just overload FS2004 with Traffic I carefully manage it. Also this deletion of AI Aircraft on approach, happens even when I have disabled General Aviation Traffic. Any help and information someone could give me would be much appreciated. I really could do with help, it is very frustrating having this happen so often, and I am running out of ideas of how to work out what is causing the problem. Could it be to do with the Scenery in question i.e. Aerosoft's Mega Airport (Amsterdam Schipol) i.e. not being a stock FS2004 Airport. Therefore causing an issue ?

Does the Data in one of AI Smooth's .db files need changing ? Also I have Ground Scenery Cast Shadows Off, and Aircraft Cast Shadows Off Should they be left on ? Also I have noticed that in some of my AI Traffic Flightplans, the Arrival times are not preceded by an @ Symbol. Should I change them to having an @ symbol in front ? And what does the @ symbol do ? And how do I do that with the program AI Flight Planner, which I use to assign AI Aircraft, to the Flight plans and edit the Flight Plans and then let the program compile the Flight Plan.

Also I have for at least 2 of the Flightplans for the AI Airlines. I have used WOAI Aircraft from the AI Traffic packages from this Website, assigned to non WOAI Flightplans, i.e. Arkefly and Vueling, could that cause the problem in question ? As sometimes it's an AI Aircraft from those Airlines, that disappear but not always ? Another thing I have done, on some advice I was given recently.

Is that I have altered the numerical values for the parking spots, changing them all to the Default FS2004 values for the Parking Radius's, for the Aerosoft Mega Airport EHAM AFCAD Files, I have for the Payware Scenery. Using ADE 1.70, and it was very straightforward to do as it turns out, as you are able to do a "mass edit" for several parking spaces, and other AFCAD items. Any help and information someone could give me, would be very much appreciated. Regards Eddie Winch
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 01:59:59 PM by eddywinch82 »

April 17, 2017, 05:25:43 PMReply #1

Offline beroun

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 05:25:43 PM »
Hi Eddie,

Few thoughts on your very complex issue.

1. I would not use AI Smooth and AI Separation together when running FS2004. Even with recommended settings it could act up and confuse AI traffic - I noted that with these programs some aircraft go into holding pattern and never line up for landing again, then disappear.

2. Your Q: Can an AI Aircraft i.e. an Airliner be deleted in flight by FS2004 if there is insufficient parking or unsuitable parking at an Airport when it is approaching it? No. Will it always approach, land and then disappear on the runway only? Yes.

3. This one is probably most important. I am not familiar with your EHAM add-on but does it allow simultaneous landings on RWYs 1L and 1R with RWYs 9 and 6? If not you can make this possible using ADE. Look at Jim Vile Whicker tutorial for creation of cross wind landings and there you can learn how to do it in ADE: http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/tutorial-jim-viles-crosswind-runways.428889/ .This would separate traffic approached using all four runways.

4. There is a possibility that you have duplicated AI traffic plans, which would act also. Get ACA2005 or equivalent to see the timetables for the airport. You would detect the duplications there and you can pull the duplicated traffic out. http://aifs2.pvdveen.net/?tag=aca2005

5. Could it be to do with the Scenery in question i.e. Aerosoft's Mega Airport (Amsterdam Schipol) i.e. not being a stock FS2004 Airport. Therefore causing an issue? Doubt it. I got many add-ons and never had this problem.

6.Also I have Ground Scenery Cast Shadows Off, and Aircraft Cast Shadows Off Should they be left on? This should not cause the problem.

7.Your Q: Also I have noticed that in some of my AI Traffic Flight plans, the Arrival times are not preceded by an @ Symbol. Should I delete it. NO! The @ symbol is there for a reason to secure arrival time, deleting it would cause even more problems. AI planning is more complex issue and I use TTools for this purpose. You can get TTools and there is a tutorial explaining all the details including the function of @ symbol. I would also use TTools to schedule a random flight to the subject airport and see if it lands. http://simviation.com//fs2004utilities1.htm

8. Your Q: Also I have for at least 2 of the Flight plans for the AI Airlines. I have used WOAI Aircraft from the AI Traffic packages from this Website, assigned to non WOAI Flight plans, i.e. Arkefly and Vueling, could that cause the problem in question ? This could be the duplication issue see 4 above.

9. Your Q: I have altered the numerical values for the parking spots, changing them all to the Default FS2004 values. That should not make much difference as long as the gate sizes are big enough for the aircraft landing at airport.

Hope this helps
Good luck
Peter Bendl,
formerly from BA

April 17, 2017, 06:49:22 PMReply #2

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 06:49:22 PM »
Hi beroun,

Many thanks for your excellent suggestions, to the questions I asked, about problems with AI Traffic I have been having. If I have installed, an WOAI Package i.e. Flightplan, and AI Aircraft.

I always disable the WOAI Traffic File, If I install a new Flightplan. And Assign the WOAI Aircraft from the WOAI package, to the new Flightplan for a new AI Traffic .bgl File. Could the problem still occur that you suggested ? associated with this ? Even if I have disabled the original WOAI Traffic File ?

Also I still get disappearing AI Aircraft, when I use AI Smooth V1.11 or 1.20 on it's own, without running AI Separation, with the settings I have attached to this post. Many thanks for your help I really do appreciate it.

Regards Eddie Winch

April 17, 2017, 07:57:37 PMReply #3

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 07:57:37 PM »
Update :- I have altered, the AI Traffic Files Flightplans, which had AI Aircraft disappearing. Although I don't know if there were more. So that they had fixed arrival Times, i.e. by adding the @ symbol to the plans, using the Freeware Program "At Symbol".

Then recompiling the Flightplans, to a new AI Traffic .bgl File, using the TTools Program. Although I havn't investigated all previously disappearing AI Aircraft.

One that was disappearing when running AI Smooth (Either Version) a Vueling Airlines A320-200, with the settings from my previous post. No longer disappears after my alterations, in the Air and lands even when using AI Smooth, I am hoping it is the same for the other disappearing AI Aircraft.

I will let you know when I find out, interesting though isn't it !? The only problem I have at the moment is AI Aircraft crashing on approach, or landing short of the Runway. Although this is normal in FS2004 apparently, until it has been running for at least 20 minutes and has had time to settle.

Regards Eddie

April 18, 2017, 12:36:17 AMReply #4

Offline beroun

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 12:36:17 AM »
Hi Eddie,

yes, at some busy airports AI land initially short of runway, it is normal.

When you say you always disable the WOAI Traffic File, If you install a new Flight plan and assign the WOAI Aircraft from the WOAI package, to the new Flightplan for a new AI Traffic .bgl File. I am assuming you delete the WOAI traffic file from the Scenery/World/Scenery folder where it was installed by the installer and then copy in your own modified traffic file? If this is the case, it should not cause any problem.

Also in general on AI Smooth. It is a great program but sometimes acts up. Obviously it is design mainly to avoid the 'kamikaze' approaches we (the FS2004) users are so much aware of, but it does not always works properly. Personally I got away from it and prefer to reduce my traffic percentage. Or modify the flight plans to avoid the traffic jams.

Be careful about using this @ symbol. Many times it works fine but sometimes the AI does not show properly. Personally, when I use the TTools, I prefer to let the program calculate its own arrival and then make sure that the next leg is at least one hour AFTER the arrival time! Note that the speed of the aircraft you plan is the second number in the aircraft folder (sample AC#27,464,"Learjet 45 Limited Edition") 464 in this case, so you can adjust it up or down to either accelerate or decrease the calculated arrival time.

I am curious how you detect the AI disappearing aircraft? Do you look at it from ground, or do you slew close to it. Or do you use the Traffic Tool board to follow aircraft in flight?

Cheers
Peter Bendl,
formerly from BA

April 18, 2017, 12:47:15 AMReply #5

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 12:47:15 AM »
Actually when I say disable, I mean that I change the file extension from .bgl  to .bgx  I do you use the TrafficViewboard Program, and when the AI Aircraft disappears from the board menu when still in the Air, and has not returned back. I know it has disappeared, because one of the AI Aircraft in question I followed, and it did disappear. Sometimes AI Aircraft are displayed and disappear off the menu, but return a little while later. Eddie

April 30, 2017, 12:29:11 PMReply #6

Offline beroun

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2017, 12:29:11 PM »
Hi again Eddie,
did some testing and I think that the @ symbol in Flight Plans does it. It (@) forces the aircraft to arrive usually earlier, sometimes later when compared to the natural calculation of the flight time (aircraft speed / distance). The flight path in FS is segmented and flow from one segment to another in normally smooth. But when @ is used there is an unnatural acceleration or deceleration of the trajectory. Picture it as a jump to satisfy the @ symbol arrival. Therefore when looking at the flight in the Traffic View board, the aircraft disappears when transiting from one segment to another and then might be picked up at the following/next segment. This would explain your disappearance and appearance later.
Please note that this is just a logical conclusion based on my testing. But I think that it is probably accurate. The flights without @ should not disappear.
Cheers
   
Peter Bendl,
formerly from BA

April 30, 2017, 09:14:31 PMReply #7

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 09:14:31 PM »
Hi beroun,

Many thanks for your efforts for me, I do appreciate very much. Also when you say disappearing, do you also mean for AI Aircraft,
that disappear completely and don't return, as I have said is happening aswell ? I.e. is that explained by your @ Symbol hypothesis ?

Best Regards

Eddie Winch

April 30, 2017, 11:27:36 PMReply #8

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2017, 11:27:36 PM »
Hi beroun,

I have noticed after investigation, that in some of my AI Flightplans, modified from ones I have downloaded off the internet. And some of the ones I didn't modify for AI Traffic Files.

That the speed in the Aircraft.txt file is 200 knots, but the corresponding AI Flightplan
doesn't have @ Symbols within it, for Arrival Times.

Am I right in thinking, with AI Flight Planner Program compiled AI Traffic Files without the @ Symbol in the Flightplan(s). They should have the Aircraft.txt File speed, the same as the Aircraft.cfg File Cruise Speed, or very similar ?

If that is the case, could this cause AI to Disappear on approach, and should all AI Traffic Files in FS2004, either have the @ Symbol or without it ? Can this problem happen, when you have a number of AI Traffic Files, some with the @ Symbol and some without ?

Regards

Eddie Winch

May 01, 2017, 03:36:05 PMReply #9

Offline beroun

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2017, 03:36:05 PM »
Hi Eddie,
The @ symbol secures given arrival time. To give you an example my actual flight from LGA to FLL in AB320 departs at 11a.m. and is scheduled to arrive at FLL at 14.05 p.m. This is the actual timetable for this flight. The AB320 in WOAI has speed of 200, so if anyone would compile the TTools schedule with departure time at 11.00 for this sector without @ it would look like this: AC#1021,AB320,1%,24Hr,IFR,11:00:00,15:55:47,300,F,197,KFLL,17:00:00,21:55:47,300,F,198,KLGA. You can see the arrival time at FLL at 15.55, which is too late. Increasing the aircraft speed to 400 would look like this: AC#1021,AB320,1%,24Hr,IFR,11:00:00,13:35:23,300,F,197,KFLL,17:00:00,19:35:23,300,F,198,KLGA You can see the arrival time at FLL at 13.35, which is too early.
Therefore the plan has the @ symbol to secure 14,05 arrival like this: AC#1021,AB320,1%,24Hr,IFR,11:00:00,@14:05:00,300,F,197,KFLL,17:00:00,21:55:47,300,F,198,KLGA.
You might say, why we do not adjust the speed to match arrival? My guess is that for this sector it could be around 360-80. Yes you would nail this sector but actual timetable airline planning dos not relate only to the speed, but also to actual deviations and obstacles the particular sector segments could have. So adjusting the speed for one sector, to match the arrival time, would not necessarily secure given arrival for another sector!
To your comments, yes, when making your own plans, it is suggested to match the TTools aircraft speed with the Cruise Speed in Aircraft.cfg file. This is to secure realism and deviating from it could shake the AI aircraft. I noted that WOAI usually use the slower speeds. 200 in case of AB320, which appears low, but I am sure there is a good reason for it.
Also important! IN WOAI plans you cannot just remove the @ symbol. The TTools would compile the sectors with the given aircraft speed and your arrivals at destinations could be AFTER the next departure. This way you would not see aircraft on ground!
There is a good post on this whole issue from while back. It is lengthy but worthwhile to read. It might shed some light on other questions you have:
https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/84746-ai-cruise-speeds/
Good luck and many successful landings.

 
Peter Bendl,
formerly from BA

May 04, 2017, 02:13:49 AMReply #10

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2017, 02:13:49 AM »
Hi Peter (beroun),

Many thanks for all the help you have been giving me, it's very much appreciated.

I have changed all my AI Traffic Files in FS2004, to having no Fixed arrival Times, i.e. not using the @ Symbol, in the Flightplans. Here is the Website link to the picture, of a Flightplan I viewed in AI Flightplanner this evening, from one of those AI Traffic Files :- 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/139951141@N02/34052554000/in/dateposted/

It's from an Aeroflot Boeing 737, which is still disappearing, and not returning on approach to Amsterdam Schipol Airport. Could you look at the Data in that Flightplan, and identify any Error(s) which might explain why the Aircraft does that ? It would be great if you could.

You can download the .bmp File, if it is too small to view properly, where I have uploaded it. Also the Speeds used in the Aircraft.txt Files, of the AI Traffic Files. Are from the cruise speed of the Aircraft, in the Aircraft.cfg File.

Regards Eddie Winch
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 02:24:17 AM by eddywinch82 »

May 05, 2017, 12:51:51 PMReply #11

Offline beroun

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2017, 12:51:51 PM »
Hi Eddie,
it is difficult to tell from the shots you sent. Could you decompile the traffic file showing this Aeroflot flight and copy it so that I can look at it and test it on my PC. For info only, the original WOAI plan for SU229 arriving on Sunday to EHAM (with @ off course) looks like this (see the sector underlined):
AC#1002,VP-BQS,18%,WEEK,IFR,1/00:37:48,@1/03:58:22,340,F,0798,UUEE,1/04:41:26,@1/08:43:50,360,F,0253,LFPG,1/09:41:40,@1/13:17:00,330,F,0575,UUEE,1/14:54:12,@1/18:52:55,300,F,0582,EGLL,1/21:30:25,@2/01:19:17,330,F,0244,UUEE,2/05:22:55,@2/09:11:47,320,F,0295,LGAV,2/10:24:23,@2/13:49:52,330,F,0296,UUEE,2/19:20:52,@2/22:19:17,330,F,0191,UGEE,3/02:09:23,@3/05:00:25,300,F,0192,UUEE,3/06:47:28,@3/09:47:07,290,F,0193,UGEE,3/11:04:38,@3/13:50:45,340,F,0194,UUEE,3/19:26:40,@3/22:59:32,370,F,0797,USNN,4/00:39:12,@4/03:59:46,320,F,0798,UUEE,4/06:39:44,@4/10:07:41,320,F,0229,EHAM,4/11:09:12,@4/14:39:37,350,F,0230,UUEE,4/19:23:51,@4/22:17:21,350,F,0191,UGEE,5/02:06:13,@5/05:04:38,340,F,0192,UUEE,5/06:39:23,@5/10:06:06,360,F,0229,EHAM,5/11:08:51,@5/14:38:02,310,F,0230,UUEE,5/19:29:39,@5/22:58:50,330,F,0797,USNN,6/00:39:44,@6/03:59:04,320,F,0798,UUEE,6/05:23:58,@6/09:14:04,300,F,0295,LGAV,6/10:24:12,@6/13:47:14,350,F,0296,UUEE,6/19:14:32,@6/22:01:53,340,F,0205,LTBA,6/23:13:15,@0/01:50:45,350,F,0206,UUEE,0/06:36:13,@0/10:09:05,360,F,0229,EHAM,0/11:09:23,@0/14:36:06,350,F,0230,UUEE,0/19:28:57,@0/22:58:08,310,F,0797,USNN
Also! Is your EHAM add-on, sometimes add-on sceneries, when loading affect AI. On speed, try to reduce it to 200 and see if the aircraft disappears.
Cheers
Peter
Peter Bendl,
formerly from BA

May 06, 2017, 04:19:44 PMReply #12

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2017, 04:19:44 PM »
Hi Peter (beroun),

I am away with my Dad at the moment. I am back home again tomorrow, so I will obtain the Aeroflot AI Aircraft Flightplan, from the Traffic File then, and post it on this Thread for you.                   

It was an Ultimate Traffic 1 compiled Traffic File originally, rather than an WOAI one. Which the Aeroflot Flightplan is part of, and the Aeroflot AI Aircraft is Flight 1. And yes my EHAM Airport is a Payware Addon, it is an Aerosoft Mega Airport Addon (Amsterdam Schipol).

Also when I made, all my Traffic Files use the @ Symbol. I.e. have Fixed Arrival times.

Most of the speeds in the Aircraft.txt Files, were half the Cruise speed value, of the corresponding Aircraft.cfg File. I.e. 238, 240, 230, 220 etc.

Should they have all been 200 instead ? Could that have caused problems ? I think when I get back tomorrow, I will revert my AI Traffic Files, back to using the @ Symbol. And have the value for all Jets as 200, instead of what I was using before.

What value should be used, in the Aircraft.txt Files, for Propellor driven AI Aircraft ? In particular small General Aviation Aircraft, like the Piper Cherokee or Cessna 172, 182 etc ?     

Best Regards

Eddie Winch
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 08:03:02 PM by eddywinch82 »

May 16, 2017, 02:47:04 PMReply #13

Offline eddywinch82

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 02:47:04 PM »
Hi Peter (beroun),

Many apologies for not doing, what I said I would do for you last Sunday. I have been rather busy at the moment,
and I have been ill in bed the last few days. Yesterday I reverted back to the original Ultimate Traffic, compiled Traffic.bgl File in Flight Sim 2004.
And disabled the one which I had modified some Flightplans with i.e. (Ultimate Traffic AI Traffic File).

And now the AI Aircraft in question, as I mentioned. I.e. the Aeroflot Airliner Boeing 737, doesn't disappear on approach now, and lands at Amsterdam Schipol Airport.

In fact none (So far), of the AI Airliner Aircraft that were disappearing, from that modified Ultimate Traffic Compiled (Traffic.bgl) File are disappearing so far.

Also I have changed all the speeds, in the Aircraft.txt File for the TTools compiled Traffic Files, I had compiled recently.
To 200 knots rather than half the Aircraft.cfg File AI Aircraft Cruise Speed, and have recompiled them using TTools. And some of the modified Flightplan, WOAI Traffic Files by me, I have reverted back to using the original WOAI Traffic File, for the WOAI Airline Package in question.

So I will let you know if that makes a difference to disappearing AI Airliner Aircraft.  I am starting to think now, my disappearing AI Airliner Aircraft,
might be due to compiling errors in the AI Traffic Files in question.

So I will contact you again soon Peter, and many apologies once again, for not responding to you until now.

Best Regards

Eddie Winch
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:53:03 PM by eddywinch82 »

May 16, 2017, 03:37:32 PMReply #14

Offline beroun

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Re: AI Traffic Disappearing On Approach To EHAM Airport In FS2004
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2017, 03:37:32 PM »
No need to apologize Eddie, glad to see that things seem to be working OK.
Peter Bendl,
formerly from BA